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SYNTHESIS

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Did Phoenicians Discover the New World?

Sat Dec 2, 2006 3:30 AM EST
history, ancient-civilizations, new-world, phoenicians, pre-columbian, seafaring
By Synthesis

Photo by [Flickr User]. (License: Creative Commons Attribution)

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Schoolchildren all over North America are taught – via the well-known, catchy rhyme -- that our continent was discovered in 1492 by a Genoese explorer named Christopher Columbus. The only problem with this dogma is that it is demonstrably untrue, many times over.

Most famously, it's been incontrovertibly proven that Vikings established a settlement in Vineland, on the shores of Newfoundland -- Vinland to them -- hundreds of years before Columbus. Elsewhere in Canada, if less accepted, Earl Henry Sinclair of the Orkney Islands is thought by some to have planted a colony some 120 years before Columbus, in what is today Nova Scotia, his navigation aided by a pair of Venetian brothers named the Zeno (more on this in an upcoming article). There is even evidence to suggest that a Chinese expedition reached the New World.

In fact, say some theories, travel between Europe, Asia, Africa and the New World was seemingly much more common than we've been led to believe. And one of the earliest pioneering peoples to embark on these journeys may have been those remarkable seafarers, the Phoenicians, doing so as early as 700 BC.

Our look at the Phoenicians begins in 2750 Before the Common Era (BCE), which is when archaeologists now believe the city of Tyre was founded. This places the Phoenicians among the earliest of the documented ancient civilizations; at this same time, the Early Minoan civilization was just emerging on the island of Crete and the Egyptians were just building the very first of their pyramids, the Step Pyramid of the Pharoah Zhoser. Clever traders, the Phoenicians were among the very earliest peoples to develop a phonetic alphabet around 1600 BCE, which ultimately becomes the ancestor of all European, Middle Eastern, Southeast Asian, Ethiopian and Korean dialects.

By 1000 BCE, the Phoenicians had become the Mediterranean's undisputed master seafarers, with a solid tradition of sea-trading going back more than 1000 years. Historian Gerhard Herm suggests that in any case, their seagoing skills were only bolstered by the invasions of the Sea Peoples around 1200 BCE. Today, the Sea Peoples are thought by most to be a loose confederation of seagoing raiders comprised of peoples from Sardinia and Sicily to the coasts of Anatolia. In any case, upon their arrival in cities such as Tyre and Sidon, the Sea Peoples would have encountered a culture in which their maritime skills would have found ready employment.

Like the much later British Empire, Phoenician maritime domination was based almost entirely on trade. Phoenician trade, in turn, was based founded on a violet-purple dye derived from the Murex snail shell. They traveled throughout the Mediterranean, trading their priceless dye, along with cedar from Lebanon and tin from Spain and possibly even Cornwall. They ventured into the Atlantic Ocean at least as far as the Azores and along the coast of Africa, and under commission to the Pharoah Necho II of Egypt, circumnavigated Africa in 600 BC, as related by Herodotus.

By 400 BCE, according to Aristotle, writing in "On Marvellous Things Heard", Phoenician colonists who settled in Carthage are said to have explored and settled a "wooded, river-watered island far outside the Pillars of Hercules". To preserve the secrecy of this land, they later destroyed their colony and killed all the inhabitants.
Similarly, in the first century BCE, Diodorus of Sicily wrote "...in the deep off Africa is an island of considerable size...fruitful, much of it mountainous.... Through it flow navigable rivers....The Phoenicians had discovered it by accident after having planted many colonies throughout Africa."

Bold seafarers the Phoenicians undoubtedly were. But what would have prompted even the most courageous sailors to set out on an ocean voyage of destined to last weeks upon weeks, all out of site of land, without prior knowledge that an end to the maritime wastes would be discovered? The answer may be that they actually did know that there was something there on the other side of the Atlantic.

In their 1997 bestseller The Hiram Key, Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas speculate on the origin of the name 'America', rejecting the popular notion that it was named after the Amerigo Vespucci. Instead, they say that, according to Josephus, "the Essenes believed that good souls have their habitation beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms or rain or snow nor with intense heat, but refreshed by the gentle breathing of the west wind which perpetually blows from the ocean. This idyllic land across the sea to the west (or sometimes to the north) is a common belief to many cultures, from the Jews to the Greeks to the Celts. The Mandaeans, [direct descendants of the Nasoreans, who Knight and Lomas suggest were the residents of the Qumran community where the Dead Sea Scrolls came from] however, believe that the inhabitants of this far land are so pure that mortal eyes will not see them and that this place is marked by a star, the name of which is 'Merica' ". They then go on to further speculate that the star 'Merica' is echoed in later Masonic ritual, where Senior and Junior Wardens ritually describe themselves as traveling from the East to the West, in search of "that which was lost".

The Phoenicians and the Israelites were co-inhabitants of the land of Canaan – so closely intertwined, in fact, that they often intermarried, and during the time of Judges, many Israelites were taken to task for worshipping Canaanite gods in common with their Phoenician neighbours. If an tradition existed among a faction of the Israelites – based on whatever ancient, hermetic or kabalistic source – it's certainly not hard to imagine that that same tradition would have been absorbed by their Phoenician neighbours. And it's not much harder to guess at the reaction of these seafaring traders, whose economic dominance in the region was based on their ability to go to the most out-of-the-way-possible locations in search of exotic and valuable trade goods, upon hearing of the prospect of an untouched land of heavenly perfection somewhere across the western ocean. Especially, one who's location was fixed by a star, since the Phoenicians were known to be especially good at celestial navigation. The Romans would come to refer to the north star as 'the Punic Star' since they knew their Carthaginian neighbours used it to navigate, even though they didn't know specifically how.

So, we have motive and opportunity, as prosecuting attorneys are fond of saying. Do we have any evidence with more weight than hearsay evidence (even hearsay originating from sources as reputable as Diodorus and Aristotle).
Again, the answer appears to be 'yes', and there appears to be plenty of evidence. Some of the most recent is based on analysis conducted by Mount Holyoke geologist Mark McMenamin on gold coins minted in Carthage between 350 and 320 BC. Working on computer enhance images of the coins, McMenamin believes he's found a map of the ancient world, with the Americas clearly depicted.

Perhaps even more compelling are the many examples of Phoenician writing found in the new world. Harvard Professor Barry Fell, author of America B.C., has researched and translated a large number of them, not only in Punic, but also in Celtic Ogam script, Iberian and Egyptian. One in particular, found in 1967 at the Mystery Hill megalithic complex in the northeastern U.S., contained a temple dedication to the Phoenician sun-god, Baal. Fell suggests that the Ogam script can be explained by the fact that the Celts of the Iberian peninsula lived side by side with Phoenicians who traded in tin with them, and with whom they exchanged writing styles and languages. Fell further added that the linguistic idiosyncrasies found beside the Keltic Mystery Hill inscriptions appeared to be unique to a Punic style used in the period from 800 to 500 B.C.

In 1974, Cyrus Gordon's Riddles in History was published, in which the author translates a Phoenician inscription found in Brazil in the 19th century, as follows:

"We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains We sacrificed a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram. our mighty king We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years, around the land belonging to Ham [Africa], but were separated from the hand of Baal and we were no long with our companions So we have come here. twelve men and three women, on a...shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the exalted gods and goddesses favor us!"

Lastly, some of the most compelling evidence for Phoenicians in the new world have again been discovered by Barry Fell who, along with other researchers, has discovered literally dozens of ancient coins in New England. "After the 4th century B.C. our visitors began to leave behind infallible date markers: those enduring metal discs called coins," said Fell in New England's Ancient Mysteries in 1993, explaining that the coins were inscribed with letters indicating they were issued to be used as pay for mercenary Greek and Iberian soldiers in the Carthaginian army.

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  • Public Discussion (36)
rochester92

Excellent work. As someone who has personally investigated "pre-Columbian" sites in New England (including, I think, the same Mystery Hill named in your article), it seems clear that there is much more to the story than the one I was taught in school.

For another take on the name America, I've read that in certain Native American language(s) it translates to "Land of the Serpent"...

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Dec 2, 2006 4:00 AM EST
rochester92

I also think Knight & Lomas' interpretation is interesting, although for me it invokes thoughts of Atlantis, not "the new Atlantis".

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Sat Dec 2, 2006 4:47 AM EST
TruthinHistory

There are so many problems with this article. The Phoenicians are hardly among the earliest known "civilizations" at 700 B.C. The worlds first cities appeared in Sumer thousands of years earlier.

The Phoenicians were contemporaneous with the 25th dynasty of Egypt, not Djoser's step pyramid (try 2700 B.C. for that one...). And the Minoans were a late Bronze Age civilization, but the Phoenicians are an Iron Age civilization.

This article is absolute rubbish. There are better articles on wikipedia.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:11 AM EDT
Synthesis

I didn't say 700 BC, I said 2750, which does put them among the earliest - others include the Sumerians, as you correctly point out.

the Phoenicians are an Iron Age civilization.

They became an Iron Age civilization. They didn't start out that way.

This article is absolute rubbish.

That's nice. Of course, you know what they say about opinions.

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:11 PM EST
Reply
barbara Hudson nee santos

 looked up this info because as a child my paternal grandmother(mary Santos born in Azor Island Third) I asked where did your people come from? She said"Phoenician".     So since I, study the bible and old testament, I found the name Azure in the bible.

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 AM EST
Synthesis

Well, Barbara, I certainly hope that you found what you were looking for, or at least some helpful info.

You may want to check out the following two articles, as they deal with Phoenicia to some extent. Plus, you might want to check in to my column from time to time. I find the Phoenicians fascinating, and write and seed about them fairly often.

Free the Celtic Homeland (Phoenicia) and this article about a Phoenician princess.

  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:23 AM EST
Reply
lauhal

Interesting.  This gave me chills:

McMenamin believes he’s found a map of the ancient world, with the Americas clearly depicted.

I've never heard of this place.  Going to check it out!

Mystery Hill megalithic complex in the northeastern U.S

  • 6 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:09 PM EST
Synthesis

Lau, I wrote this article back in ancient NV days when I didn't know how to do hot links. Since that's so remedied ; ), here's a link to an article about McMenamin, with some illustrations of the coins.

And here's a link jdoyle gave me on my 'Stonehenge in Lake Michigan' thread. It has some nice pics of Mystery Hill....

  • 4 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:08 PM EST
MinnieApolis

Lurking -- gloing to check out some of those links. See you later, Synth.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:23 PM EST
Synthesis

You bet.

Cool that this thread from ancient history (my Greenhouse days?) has resurfaced.

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:32 PM EST
MinnieApolis

I need to refresh my memory on the Carthaginians and the Phoenicians, as well as they Libyans. Fell in his book America BC said the Libyans were great navigators, and I just assumed he meant -- Phoenicians?

Carthage, Tyre and Sidon. Could the Roman destruction of Carthage also mean that their colonies or outposts in the New World, if any, were effectively abandoned, and the Americas were not to be discovered again till Columbus? Interesting idea, anyway.

Have been kicking around idea for some article on Egyptian influence in New World, with some <del>evidence</del> stories that royal Egyptians found their way here with help of Libyan sailors. Maybe the sailing knowledge of the Phoenicians/Carthaginians was not totally lost.

  • 4 votes
#5.2 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:07 PM EST
Synthesis

Minnie, I don't know off the top of my head about LIbya, but the Malian Empire of the 12th and 13th centuries was known to be a great trading nation, with significant maritime capabilties. There is a tale about an emperor of Mali, Abubakr II, who led an expedition to the New World around 100 years or so before Columbus.

As for the destruction of Carthage, I have no doubt that such a monumental event (or even the pressures of ongoing warfare preceding it) would have stressed their capabilities so far that any thought of maintaining contact with such a far-flung settlement would have been out of the question. An example would be the way in which, during the waning days of the Roman Empire, stresses on the imperium were so great that even a major colony like Britain had to be essentially abandoned.

The possibility of Egyptians inheriting Phoenician/Carthaginian sailing knowledge becomes even more fascinating when you consider the prevailing winds and currents in the Mediterranean. A constant (if slow) current runs East to West along the north coast of Africa, from Carthage to the Nile, and the Mistral wind would run at a Carthaginian sailor's back all the way. From Egypt, a Carthaginian sailor would follow the coast north to the Levant, Tyre and Sidon, before taking the counter-clockwise, northeasterly route to Cyprus, Turkey, Crete, Sicily, Sardinia, Ibiza and the coast of Spain. From there it could be south to Carthage, or possibly through the Straits of Gibraltar to Gades (Cadiz)....and beyond?

  • 3 votes
#5.3 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:03 PM EST
Reply
James Corbett

Great article, I always love reading your column since you always find something interesting as well as thought provoking.

Keep up the great work and I will be looking forward in learning what you are willing to share. I have always found history and archeology interesting, but finding the time to read the large tomes is lacking.     

  • 5 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:29 PM EST
Synthesis

Thanks, James. Especially, thanks for providing the feedback! I am always amazed when someone tells me they've been reading a lot, if not necessarily commenting regularly.

I appreciate hearing from you, and stick around....things are getting increasingly interesting, I think.

  • 4 votes
#6.1 - Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:05 PM EST
Reply
onecoolraisin

Love your articles! Most of them are a way different opinion than what you hear on the news. I always find them interesting, even if I dont necessarily agree with what your saying in it. I really want to learn more about the phoenicians. They dont get any credit for anything really. Everyone thinks Rome and Greece were so great even though they probably stole most of their ideas from other cultures.

  • 6 votes
Reply#7 - Sat May 30, 2009 7:49 PM EDT
Synthesis

Thanks, onecoolraisin.

The Phoenicians are way cool on so many levels....very early inventors of writing, master traders, maritime adventurers and explorers par excellence, founders of Carthage, traders in tin from the British Isles and mysterious red-heads, to boot!!

  • 4 votes
#7.1 - Sat May 30, 2009 8:56 PM EDT
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect Synthesis, another great link I BM'ed it. This is what I took away, along with a question.

"The Phoenicians did not suddenly arrive upon the historical scene as invaders or immigrants. They were Canaanites, and cannot be differentiated either ethnically or culturally from the general mass of Canaanites.

As Canaanits they are of traditional Africoid ethnically. The 21 ton African American heads in South America are a good likeness of them in their majority. The Brazil translation of metu neter supports the reality of the great sailors of Canaan/Phoenicia.

"Some of the inhabitants of Byblos maintain that the Egyptian Osiris is buried in their town,

This is interesting, as the story of Ausar (Greek transliteration Osiris) was as widely known in the ancient civilized world as the story of Jesus is known today. The town in which the African queen Auset found her husband would be of enormous spiritual importance.

"Herodotus (4.42) says that the Pharaoh Necho II, who reigned c. 615-595 B.C., determined to see if Africa could be circumnavigated.

I remember this story but I did not know the name Sataspes and how he got charged with the circumnavigation task, Interesting.

The Greek word from which 'Phoenicia' derived meant 'purple', and was a translation of the name 'Canaan' which may have had some etymological connection with the purple dye produced from local murex shellfish for which the region was famous.

Black and Purple were sacred colors worn by priest/professors and used in rituals. This African tradition is seen throughout Kemet (ancient Egypt) and the early African Christian church, later carried forward into the modern christian Church which, was my first introduction to spirituality here in the West.

"'Phoenician' means 'red haired'.

Now this is interesting, as I know of no Africans with red hair, although I may be in error. I do know of groups of Africans that have used a red dye to color their hair for beautyfication and/or other purposes.

The article indicates Phoenician = Canaan = Purple and Red Hair. It does not seem that all three would be accurate. Are there any melanin dosage tests done on hair samples as an ethnic verification as to the biological ethnicity of the majority of Phoenicians.

  • 3 votes
#7.2 - Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:09 AM EDT
Synthesis

The red-hair thing could easily be a (pardon the expression) red herring, as it is easy to find all sorts of dyes that could have been used, not not mention the fact that many translations use translate it as "red-headed" -- in other words, a red-coloured hair covering rather than the colour of the hair itself.

Still, I have been working on the theory that the Phoenicians were of proto-Celtic Battle-ax/Beaker culture origin, which would also explain the origin of the labrys cult within the nearby Minoan culture.

  • 2 votes
#7.3 - Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:26 PM EDT
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

H&R Synth, enlighening points.

translate it as "red-headed" -- in other words, a red-coloured hair covering rather than the colour of the hair itself.

most interesting.

Still, I have been working on the theory that the Phoenicians were of proto-Celtic Battle-ax/Beaker culture origin, which would also explain the origin of the labrys cult within the nearby Minoan culture.

Understanding just who the Celts were would be very helpful.

  • 2 votes
#7.4 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:01 AM EDT
Mic Hudson

I understand that the Hebrew word for man ("adawm"), means to "show blood in the face" (e.g., "be red-faced", or "to blush").

Also note that many bible scholars believe "Esau" (another Hebrew word, which means "red-haired"), the brother of Jacob/Israel, to be represented by modern day Russia.

  • 2 votes
#7.5 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:58 AM EDT
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect Mic Hudson, interesting understanding but it seems inconsistent with ethnographics of the land.

I do not know a lot about the language but it seems to me that Canaan being an African land and the Canaanite language being the foundation of Hebrew it is not likely the indigenous people would have thought of themselves as red faced. I can think of no place else in ancient Africa where this is the case.

  • 2 votes
#7.6 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
Mic Hudson

I have to admit, this is the first time I recall anyone referring to Canaan as an African land. Perhaps the reference is made due to the proximity and the close historical ties with Northern Africa. The Hebrew language is closely associated with the Chaldee language. Abram (aka, Abraham) migrated to that area from the city of Ur (ruins located in modern Iraq), near the river Euphrates. The historical significance of the Israelites 400 years of bondage in Egypt before their return to Canaan is perhaps (at least partially) another reason for this misunderstanding regarding both geographic and socio/ethnic eccentricities regarding this area. The area (the Arabian peninsula) has always been a hotly contested geographical location (with wars between numerous peoples/tribes from different ethnic (and perhaps even more esoteric) origins.

  • 2 votes
#7.7 - Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:45 PM EDT
Reply
Mic Hudson

It's interesting to view the Phoenicians from different perspectives.

Where do you think they originated (what bloodline [or tribe] do they descend from)?

I understand there were several different peoples in the land of Canaan (one of whom were the Kenites). Were the Phoenicians and the Kenites one and the same peoples? It is possible but I don't believe so.

In my study of the bible, *Tyre (aka *Tyrus) is mentioned several times in prophetic scriptures, including a specific prince whose description is rather extraordinary (as is his history and his demise). [see Ezekiel 28:11-19]

Another Phoenician city called *Zidon (aka *Sidon), north of Tyre is credited for being the mariners of Tyre (as are the people of Arvad). The Zidonians of course worshipped the *Queen (aka *Mother) of Heaven (the goddess Ashtoreth).

Zidon (according to scripture) is described as being the son of Canaan (Canaan of course is the illegitimate [and cursed] son of Ham and his mother [Noah's wife], conceived through incestuous relations).

I find that rather curious, for if both Tyre (Tyrus) and Zidon (Sidon) were actually both Phoenician cities, both Tyrus and Zidon would appear to be related to one another. Yet that does not seem to be the case!

If the Phoenicians (not described as such in scripture) and the Kenites (who are mentioned) were one and the same people, it leaves a lot to be explained, including why the Phoenicians worshiped Astoreth specifically. There is a discrepancy somewhere. Could it be the people of Tyre and those of Zidon were not both Phoenician cities, but two separate peoples (who only commerced together)? This is what I am led to surmise.

Cain (father of the Kenites) was described as having settled in the East (in the land of Nod) yet we find his descendants in Canaan. If Tyrus and Cain are from the same gene pool, then the people of Tyre and those of Zidon are two different peoples. That would mean The Kenites (descendants of Cain) were originally descended from Tyrus. Cain therefore is also a descendant of Tyrus and the *Zidonians (*Canaanites) are actually the Phoenicians of historical record!

The way I see it, Tyre must have been a Kenite city but Zidon and Arvad, Phoenician cities. That implies the Zidonians were *servants, or sub-serviant to (*aka mariners) to the Kenites. That explains why the Zidonians worshipped Astoreth (who [in turn] must be either a wife or concubine of Tyrus)! This would seem to satisfy the apparent discrepancy and fits the pieces of the puzzle together fairly succinctly (at least in my mind)!

History sure can be a can of worms, huh?

  • 1 vote
Reply#8 - Sun May 31, 2009 1:33 AM EDT
Mic Hudson

I sort of drift from time to time. If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it (I understand) and I apologise!

  • 2 votes
#8.1 - Sun May 31, 2009 1:49 AM EDT
Synthesis

No apologies necessary, Mic, and IMHO, your speculations are right on target, not to mention on topic.

Tracing the socio-ethno-genetic and cultural interconnections in the Levant is a bugger because as the major crossroad between Egypt and the other players in the region, as well as it's position on the coast, it was a magnet for literally dozens of influences.

It's been my emerging hypothesis that the Phoenicians were in fact Europeans, probably proto-Celts, and the diversity you describe is an artifact of the first meetings between European peoples and Semitic peoples (or at least, the first meetings (and commerce and intermarriage) that took place in that specific region), and the conflict between Ezekiel and the king and prince of Tyre definitely seems to contain some internecine overtones.

  • 1 vote
#8.2 - Sun May 31, 2009 9:33 AM EDT
Reply
onecoolraisin

Im confused...

  • 4 votes
Reply#9 - Sun May 31, 2009 7:15 PM EDT
Synthesis

Why, Raisin?

  • 2 votes
#9.1 - Sun May 31, 2009 7:29 PM EDT
Reply
onecoolraisin

Well its just the whole confusing part of Mic Hudsons comment.

  • 3 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Jun 1, 2009 7:02 PM EDT
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect Synthesis, I read the whole thing. I am speechless. I wll be back when I have more free microseconds. Clipped. Tnx for raising my Cultural Literacy.

Newsvine-Get Smarter Here

Aunk- Live and learn or crash and burn!

  • 4 votes
Reply#11 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
Synthesis

Glad you enjoyed it, Aunk!

  • 3 votes
#11.1 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 6:48 PM EDT
Reply
txtj1

hi syni always thought the first south american tribes were from india n china ,.heres a page u might like to study ,.blessings

http://www.crystalinks.com/ancient.html

  • 2 votes
Reply#12 - Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:50 AM EDT
Synthesis

Well, it's certainly true that there's a lot of evidence for contact between China and the New World, although most of the evidence for that comes from early medieval days, as opposed to being early enough to have been the origin of the South American civilization. I will look at your links though, to see if I can learn more about such a theory.

  • 2 votes
#12.1 - Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:44 AM EDT
Reply
Frankie-1240977

Synth, very interesting article.. I'm writing a paper on possible discoverers of the New World other than Columbus.. I'd be interested in seeing what other opinions you had on the subject.. If you get the chance please send me and e-mail so we can discuss the topic.

  • 2 votes
Reply#13 - Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:34 PM EDT
Synthesis

I will do that....I've got some ideas, some of which I've talked about here in my Crypto-History series.

  • 1 vote
#13.1 - Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:57 PM EDT
Reply
Frankie-1240977
    Reply#14 - Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:01 PM EDT
    Shub Tnediserp Remrof

    Are we Atlantis?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#15 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 9:12 AM EST
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