Was Megalithic Culture Earth's First Empire?

You also need to remember that this time period was in the middle of the Holocene maximum, a time when the planet was quite a few degrees warmer than today.

Taken as read, Space....but what are you suggesting?

Humans breed more during warm weather. It is no coincidence that the Mongols had their peak during the MWP.

Synthesis, I, of course, agree with what you say. A great source for such myths as you say, is of course, the Vedas.

Personally I believe that our universe is infinite, and that there are infinite universes. So, through my own spectacles, such things are not a terrible surprise.

Without further ado, I present the Hindu Creation passage from 3000 B.C, or even earlier. Attempt to take it, as you say, with a bit of seriousness than those who say such scriptures were only written to "control" people.

"Then was not non-existence nor existence: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water? Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was at first concealed in darkness this. All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit. Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder. Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The devas are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not" - (Rig Veda 10.129.1-7)

How can anyone not see the beauty in this?
And Surprisingly the last lines sound almost agnostic.

Clearly the similarities between different cultures are so remarkable that it is quite likely that they derived from the same source.

Look, for example, how many different cultures came to essentially the same conclusions about the five elements (four base +quintessence)

As for creation stories, Take a look at the emerald tablet from egypt:

Contemporary rendering of Latin text

1. True, without error, certain and most true
2. That which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above, to perform the miracles of the one thing.
3. And as all things were from [the] one, by [means of] the meditation of [the] one, thus all things of the daughter from [the] one, by [means of] adaptation.
4. Its father is the sun, its mother[,]the moon, the wind carried it in its belly, its nurse is the earth.
5. The father of all the looms of the whole world is here.
6. Its power is integrating if it be turned into earth.
7. Separate the earth from the fire, the fine from the dense, delicately, by [means of/to] the great [together] with capacity.
8. It ascends by [means of] earth into heaven and again it descends into the earth, and retakes the power of the superior[s] and of the inferior[s].
9. Thus[,] you have the glory of the whole world.
10. Therefore[,] may it drive-out by [means of] you of all the obscurity.
11. This is the whole of the strength of the strong force, because it overcomes all fine things, and penetrates all the complete.
12. Thus[,] the world has been created.
13. Hence they were wonderful adaptations, of which this is the manner.
14. Therefore[,] I am Hermes the Thrice Great, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world.
15. What I have said concerning the operation of the Sun has been completed.

And then, the first verse of the Tao Te Ching:

Tao can be talked about, but not the eternal Tao
Names can be named, but not the eternal name.
As the origin of heaven-and-earth it is nameless:
As "The Mother" of all things it is nameable.
So, as ever hidden, we should look at it's inner essence:
As always manifest, we should look at it's outer aspects.
These two flow from the same source, though differently named;
And both are called mysteries.
The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence.

I quoted the Vedic one first, because the vedas are the oldest extant and complete written texts that we have, from 3000 B.C. and probably representing an older oral tradition. As well as their rather large nature, and the traditional viewpoint (even scholarly) that they were brought to India by an invading group of people from elsewhere.

Great article and interesting discussion.

There are histories in the Vedic lineage that talk about a world-wide kingdom. Some might assume the "world" being mentioned is just the Indian subcontinent, but it might have, indeed, been the entire world (or that portion of it which was known).

thus all things of the daughter from [the] one, by [means of] adaptation.

This sounds like an allusion to evolution. Neat!

Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder.

These words hold a wealth of meaning, if only I could comprehend it. What strikes me is that, this is a very non-judgemental creation account (unlike that of Adam and Lilith/Eve).

It seems to say that desire is the difference between above and below (physical and spiritual) -- a doorway so to speak, that once entered, is difficult to exit.

Most accounts tend to emphasize the sexual nature of desire, but while procreation/population is certainly an issue, I'm not convinced that the true meaning of desire (and it's effect on the separation) wasn't more than just sexual. It seems we like our own way (free will), and by God, think we have a right to do what we want. Isn't that desire?

Most people choose a side in the debate, but I always want to know why we can't merge the two realms into one. Or must we drag humanity (kicking and screaming) up the spiral stairs? I'm just not convinced that most of us will go of our own free will, that is, give up desire for discipline and commitment. If we are indeed all connected, and I believe we are, then we might need a compromise solution.

Er, sorry for going off topic:(

Probably, it was confined to the refuge in the Balkans during the last Ice Age, and then spread northward during the recolonization of northern Europe following the retreat of the glaciers.

By any chance, have you written more on this topic, or do you have any information you could link? I never saw any megalithic structures in the area, but there was a great deal of stone work, not to mention very long walls.

Thanks for the great article, Synthesis.

Thanks!

I used to have solstice parties twice a year for many years in a row, featuring campfire leaping, effigy burning and all manner of other pagan debauchery.

You're just a fun guy... Did you have a Saturnalia also complete with run thru town (I am guessing you are not the athletic type tho).

Amesbury Archer also dubbed "King of Stonehenge" - Origin: Southern Bavaria or Austria

Boscombe Bowmen, origin: Southerm Germany/Austria

This is also the region where the globular amphora originates from, which you mentioned, and which are corded ware. The intersection of corded ware and globular amphora is Germany and Austria.

There is a peculiar notion in the description of Bronze Age finds in Britain to describe the dental isotope analysis results with the term "having migrated". But few times is mentioned from where they migrated as if it wasn't possible to know. The origin is South-Eastern Germany and Austria

The elite being buried was not from the British Islands. Britain, in this Bronze Age culture, was occupied territory. I was wondering for a long time if this peculiar aspect of British pre-history finds' lack of mention is for patriotic reasons.

Also, the enormous amount of huge circular structures and grave mounts in Germany and Austria hardly ever finds any mention in descriptions of civilisatory artefacts from the Bronze Age in English literature.

BTW:

Ever seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat

This will give you a clue about where the pointed hoods in Spanish Easter processions come from, or the pointed hats of sorcerers and witches in tradional imagery. Sticks well with the Mold cape, doesn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold_cape Both together form the likely dress of the Bronze Age "Calendar" Priest. Worn together or separately, who knows.

This is also quite interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_skydisk

Well as far as I know, the Funnelbeaker and later the Bell Beaker cultures (had to look the English names up, LOL) stem right from the Neolythic with migrations occuring only within the European continent, shaping sub-types like the Unetice culture and others. The appearance of burial mounts may likely have Eastern (Kurgan) origin but they appeared only after 1500-2000BC so that the builders of Stonehenge and any invader at the same time could not have had Caucasus origins. The Slavic/Caucasus influence is clear in the Tumulus and later the Urnfield culture in Germany, but at this point, the Atlantic proto-Celts had already clearly distinguished from the Continental proto-Celts.

And when the Romans came, there had already come to pass the Hallstadt culture, another major empire in continental Europe. And this one definitely including Slavic nations as well as stretching wide up the Danube towards Southern Germany and down to the Black Sea. The Hallstadt culture traded with Greece and Britain and dominated the entire continent 1000-500 BC. The Romans entered North of the Alps in the so-called La Tène culture, having their centre North of the Western Alps and having surpassed the Hallstadt culture for their better (but still not good) access to iron.

Are we talking about Atlantis?

Actually, I should have said,

And what of this world-wide civilization that ensued? Are we talking about Atlantis?

As yet, we have no clue as to the origin of the woman who was the mother of our modern human race.

The last Ice Age went from 70.000-10.000 BC. I don't get your reference to a megalithic culture fleeing inwards thousands of years later.

Anyhow, my assessment of the likely path of civilisational expansion would be one that follows the paths from South and South-East to North and North-West, where not a genuine own civilisation of Atlantis offers its specific wisdom to the inhabitants of the British islands, who then move across the mainland to let the rest of the ignorant Europeans take part in their superior state.

Heck, the bones found close to Stonehenge describe the continental roots of those that are believed to be their architects or priests - at least though some important figures in the social hierarchy of their times.

I believe that the idea that some island-illuminatis are the creme de la creme of European pre-civilisation, something motivated by patriotism, not necessarily fact.

There existed a high culture stretching Europe, with a more or less elaborated trade system and close religious/mystical ties. For that to happen, there had to be some sort of peace and security for the trade and travel of humans and merchandise. And for this to happen there had to be a power structure to assure that peace. But I don't think that the power-centre of this civilisation could have exerted that role from the extreme periphery of the European Continent.

Wealthy and important people move from the power centre to rule over the periphery, the way we see at Stonehenge - proof given. Your theory misses the appearance of wealthy and powerful Coastal people who move towards Central Europe.

Now, if you can present to me any kind of elaborate item from the period, or any major and splendid grave in Continental Europe whose origin or whose body is from the British Islands or similar, then lets talk. But until then, the expansion was the other way round as findings bear witness.

The story of our proposed ancient civilization begins with a river, one of the mightiest ever known to man. Less than half the length of the Amazon, its output equaled or exceeded the four million two hundred thousand cubic feet per second total volume of water that the Amazon carries to the sea. For almost forty million years, this river, named the Eridanus in myth, flowed southwesterly from its origin near the summit of Sokosti Fell in Finnish Lapland. Tumbling in massive waterfalls down the steep slopes above the alpine tree line of the Fell, the river rushed through the temperate coniferous forest of fir, larch and yew until it reached the ridges, dales, downs and wide plains where the Gulf of Bothnia and the Gulf of Finland now lie. There, it met the northern edge of the great European forest of Pseudolarix pine, weeping its amber tears into the broad and placid waters. As the North Sea basin subsided and the Finnish-Scandinavian shield rose, the Eridanus, swollen with the outflowing waters from most of northwestern Europe, turned westward, toward the distant sea.

About twelve million years ago, the Eridanus breached the final barrier between Jutland and the Scandinavian Peninsula and began to build an immense delta paleogeologists and marine archaeologists now call Doggerland. This great alluvial plain of the Eridanus extended westward from Denmark to Scotland, covering most of what we now call the North Sea, eventually spreading southward, to what mythology calls the kingdom of Lyonesse that lay between the current coasts of Great Britain and France and to Cantref y Gwaelod that lies beneath the waters at the seaward end of the Dyfi Valley in Wales and to the enchanted island of Hy-Brasil off the western shores of Ireland and to all the other fabled lands which once extended to the edge of the Celtic Shelf itself but were lost when the deep overflowed those kingdoms long after the great river ceased to flow.

The Eridanus disappeared during the last ice age seven hundred thousand years ago. When the ice caps at last retreated, the ancient river valley had been scoured out into a deep hollow that eventually became the Baltic Sea. Remnants of the Eridanus can still be found all through northern Europe, from the Netherlands at its western end to sediments in northern Lapland. Though the river itself ceased to exist long before the advent of anatomically modern humans, though it vanished half a million years before the rise of Homo Sapiens sapiens, it provided the rich and fertile landscape that nurtured the people of the Atlantic Façade, providing a haven during periods of glaciation and migration routes during the warm periods between. The area known as Doggerland, those lands now sunk beneath the shallow coastal waters of Western Europe, allowed humans access to the colder northwestern highlands that would later become the British Isles on their summer migrations across the coastal plains to the shores of the Baltic Sea. We cannot be sure of the extent of their "civilization", though legends say that the Empire from the Sea stretched from the Orkney Islands across the top of the world to Gothia (Poland/Ukraine), Dacia (Romania), the Maeotic Marsh (Sea of Azov) and the Rhipaean Mountains (Urals/Altai).

From Hyperborea to Lochlinn - and even Atlantis, legends recount the stories of the great sea-going empire of a people whose descendants are, even today, uniquely identified by the Atlantic Modal Haplotype in the west and the almost identical Armenian Modal Haplotype in the east. These people did not originate in what is today known as the British Isles. More likely, their place of origin was in the refugia of Iberia and on the plains of Doggerland. They fled to the uplands of the continent when the waters began to rise. Some of those uplands were severed from the mainland and became islands. It was not racial superiority that kept their bloodlines purer in the lands facing the Atlantic; it was their isolation. Every person now living who carries those AMH genetic markers is descended from these people. They can be found from Ireland to Iran, from Scandinavia and Germany to Poland and Russia and from Romania to Armenia.

LOL! Let's just hope that, between the two of us, we got the message across!

Agreed. There will always be some who believe in the myth of racial superiority, which is really very stupid and only succeeds in obfuscating the real facts of human history.

As I said:

Interestingly, it is common within the English-speaking literature to stress the seafaring elements of early cultures and to use predominantly examples of findings from the British Islands.

Just try to read trough the literature you know, and see if you find mention of the term "Goseck". Site of a henge with, for its dating of 7000-5000BC, full elaboration of the principles that share all European neolithic observatories. In Germany alone, over 200 circular ditches built in a comparable period (app. 5000BC) have been found in various sizes. They weren't living quarters, hence they must have exclusively been places of cult.

Now, Syn, when you say that coastal people moved inwards and brought their high culture to the Central European ignorants, you'll have to explain how they travelled in time. Because places like Goseck - in their elaboration - are older than the ones on Orkney, in Brittany, Stonehenge etc.

Now, don't take this personally. Even in wikipedia you will find no mention of the Central European origins of British neolithic monuments. The entire thrust of the associated archaeology is based on the agenda that Britain is different, unique, most of all superior, have nothing in common with Europe, are apart, etc.

That's bull. The only reason that you don't find dolmens and stone structures of this time in Central Europe ,is the fact that everything that could be used to build ramparts and castles was dug out, cracked and used in this infinitely more belligerent Centre of Europe, while the calmer periphery didn't have to resort to such systematic pillage.

Now to your theory of earlier movement.

I see really no basis for the theory you make. I am fully aware of the ancient river that stretched from the baltics to the Channel of England, along the border of the ice age mass of permanent ice.

But I am very suspicious as towards the description of the banks of this river being the cradle of any kind of civilisation. I don't believe - until evidence is found, that a tundra, permafrost, half-year long snow covered land can bring about any kind of elaborate power system, elaborate trade, elaborate power projection, any notable agriculture and elaborate manufacture. Heck, during the time when such a culture would have established itself, there still weren't trees there - high cultures don't grow overnight.

I cannot see how any migratory movement from the ridges of the ice could have made it in any coodinated manner and in any numbers that assures its survival among the inhabitants they come up against.

Again, as the ice retreats, the movement of people goes North, from Centre to Periphery. ANy other movement would be a real surprise and defy not only all odds, but find not more archaeological basis than it finds genetic one.

And if you would argue that this Atlantean high-culture were to have existed pre ice age, I wonder what homo erectus culture might have been - but certainly not particularly "high".

(BTW: The theory of Atlantis in my book is that was a site very much like this, within trading distance of Tartessos, lost at an earlier period in pretty much the same deluvial manner that assumedly sealed the fate of Tartessos later-on. That's sufficient to satisfy all ancient descriptions and - importantly, the uniqueness of the ancient Tartessian language gives certain indication, that Tartessus was once part of a larger culture that might have, in its periphery, included the Canary Islands and maybe even beyond. I don't give credence to anything that locates Atloantis close to the iceage permanent ice shelf. Basically for the same reasons as given above.)

Martin,

During periods of glaciation, the interior of Northern and Central Europe was many degrees colder than the coastal regions like the low-lying plains of what we call the European Atlantic Façade. All flora and fauna, including the hominins, retreated during these periods to the southern refugia, the westernmost of which were located on the Iberian peninsula and on those alluvial plains of the Eridanus now called Doggerland.

When the glaciers retreated, the seas rose, forcing migrations into the now habitable interior of the continent. So, yes, the movement of 'high' culture was from the coastal region into the interior and these migration routes generally followed the rivers. The area known as Doggerland, those lands that are now sunk beneath the shallow coastal waters of Western Europe, also allowed the people of this culture access to the colder northwestern highlands that would later become the British Isles when they migrated across the coastal plains to the shores of the Baltic Sea and the area now identified as Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

At a time when other cultures were leaving the bodies of their dead to the elements, or at most were preserving only the heads, the people of the European Atlantic Façade were burying the complete body of the deceased, in an area designated solely for this purpose.

Their burial sites in Latvia, dating from 9,000 years ago, are similar to the oldest dated modern human remains yet discovered, the Red Lady burial in Paviland Cave on the southern coast of Wales' Gower peninsula around 24000 BCE. The site in Wales is the only ceremonial burial site found so far from this age. The grave goods were made of bone, antler and ivory ornaments as well as perforated seashell necklaces.

In both places, the bodies were wrapped in hides and preserved by red ochre. This is considered to be the origin of mummification. In Latvia, offerings of birds were found together with sculpted pendants and necklaces made from the teeth of elk, deer, boar, wolf, fox and marten. Pendants of pearls and amber as well as wooden animal sculptures of elk and birds were also found as offerings. In the later burials, the bodies were not only wrapped in hides and preserved with red ocher; they were put into hollowed-out tree trunks that strongly resemble the construction of Egyptian sarcophagi.

12,000 years ago, the oceans of the earth were 200 feet lower than they are today. The littoral edges of the continents provided resources that the frozen interiors could not, supporting a population who were already venturing across open water in small vessels and following ancient migration and trading routes across exposed land bridges around the world. Soon thereafter, the oceans around the world began to rise, and the ancient land bridges were subject to incursions from the rising waters.

On Doggerland, the islands we know today began to separate from the continent in a series of massive earthquakes which spawned huge tsunamis that swept across the vast lowlands, threatening this very desirable territory warmed by the pleasant Gulf Stream currents. The great megalithic structures of Western Europe, according to one theory, were originally created as a means of predicting the frequent massive earthquakes and tsunamis that plagued the area. And, since most of the population inhabited land that is now underwater, many of the older structures would logically also be underwater.

Marshall Smith, a NASA Engineer and Consultant, created a computer modeling system of earthquake prediction based on the alignments of Stonehenge that is amazingly accurate. He believes that the ancient Europeans quickly learned that "the earthquakes and tsunamis only occurred when the moon was at its most northern or southern extremes, above and below the earth's equator." By observing the motions of the moon and sun, our ancestors could predict when the massive earthquakes and tsunamis would occur, giving them, in effect, an ancient tsunami early warning system. Simply by knowing when the moon would approach an extreme north or south position, people could evacuate to much higher ground and escape the impending doomsday disaster.

Smith goes on to say, "The proof… (that this was) the function of Stonehenge is shown by the fact that the alignments of the five central massive Trilithons in the middle of Stonehenge only line up with the extremes of the sun or solstices and the extremes of the moon or lunistices. The extremes of the moon do occur twice each month, but these are mostly monthly minor lunastices. Because of the variations of the shape and tilt of the moon's orbit, about every 18.5 years, only then does the moon move to its most extreme north and south motion, or major lunastice of 28 degrees above and below the motion of the sun... the most dangerous time for the massive devastating earthquakes and tidal waves."

No problem Briwnys, you are free to follow a Nordic high culture theory linking it all the way to a supreme Stonehenge/Atlantis-wisdom lost civilisation, predicting the exact day of major earthquakes 5.000 years ago.

But at the times of the North Sea river, there was no Gulf Stream heating very much of the Nordic places. It was a river, remember? Hence the Baltics had a Continental Climate. And it was the Ice Age. Little or Nothing of any Conveyor Belt effect during the Ice Age, according to conventional wisdom.

And higher average temperatures close to the sea does not mean a longer growth season or better climate, but barely a longer but less cold winter. Otherwise Scotland would be Britain's agricultural centre.

Again, feel free to follow a Nordic high culture theory. I'm free to discard it. I'm free to assume that a river made up of melting ice water, was as devoid of life and nutrition for life as are the glacier waters of today's age and time and that apart of hunting scarce meat and scarce fish, Nordic life brought about pretty much nothing.

But I am very suspicious as towards the description of the banks of this river being the cradle of any kind of civilisation.

The delta, not the banks, of the Eridanus is the area to which I am referring, though the interior was, at times, much warmer than it is today (winter temperatures ranged from 1.4 to 50° F). Scandinavia was even an island and the West Siberian Plain was flooded, not frozen, during part of this period.

The area you suggest might have been the inspiration for Plato's Atlantis is located on the Iberian peninsula and I consider it to be the most logical of the many sites suggested, except that it is far too late to agree with Plato. Plato placed the sinking of Atlantis around 9650 BCE, almost exactly the time the land around Dogger Bank began to flood, making it an island. Tartessos is dated at around 900 BCE. Dogger Bank is too far north to be Atlantis since Plato locates it opposite the "Pillars of Heracles" - unless, of course, the pillars Plato meant were the Irminsul of the ancient Saxon people.

12,000 years ago, the oceans of the earth were 200 feet lower than they are today.

16,000 years ago the oceans were between 420-450 feet lower. This amount of land is the equivalent to the entire continent of Africa.

A note on Doggerland and what are called "cryptic" refugia:

According to some archaeological interpretations based on the scarcity of archaeological findings, northern Europe was abandoned as people moved to southern refuges during the peak of the last glacial maximum (Mellars 1974; Evans 1975), from where they re-expanded north when the climate improved (Housley et al. 1997). However, others have proposed that some people could have stayed in the north, especially in areas that are now submerged under the North Sea (Coles 1998). When the Scandinavian and British ice sheets reached their maximum extent and the North Sea as a consequence receded to its lowest level (Fairbanks 1989) Britain was connected to the continent by a land bridge. This dry land, referred to as Doggerland, is now believed to have lasted longer and been larger than previously thought and may have been inhabited (Wymer 1991; Coles 1999). After the ice receded, they could have radiated out from those regions into communities further north (illustrated in fig. 4). Some of those now in the north of Europe (e.g., northern Germany) may represent people who migrated from the south, while some people in that region historically moved further north.

Tracing the Phylogeography of Human Populations in Britain Based on 4th–11th Century mtDNA Genotypes
MBE Advance Access originally published online on September 8, 2005
Molecular Biology and Evolution 2006 23(1):152-161; doi:10.1093/molbev/msj013

Sorry, but until somebody comes up with a credible model that explains how sea levels can have been several hundreds of feet lower and the climate at least as warm as today (and this as little as 10.000 years ago), this computer animation will remain in my eyes one of the many idealisations that some people make up when describing prehistory, always when it creates sensations.

Its a matter of common sense. That a computer animator puts trees on a place doesn't mean that there were trees there. Water can either be ice or water. When its cold, sea levels are low. When its warm, sea levels are high. And climate doesn't create pouches of heat as the one described in this article.

I'm ready to bet my shirt that when finally vegetation remains are searched for on the floor, that computer animation will see fundamental changes - there will be no trees.

This study has demonstrated that the ocean surface cooled by as much as 10 degrees C over the Holocene at the northern sites, whereas the temperature has remained steady over that period at the two southernmost sites. One hypothesis to explain the data is that the Gulf Stream path was farther north during the early Holocene than it is today, and bathed the northern sites depicted here in its warmer waters.

Sediment Core Locations to Reconstruct Sea Surface Temperatures Over the Last 10,000 Years
Jessie Kneeland (Department of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences)

Graham Clark, the excavator of the Mesolithic site at Star Carr in Yorkshire, referring to the North Sea: "the submerged land had been the heartland of an early Mesolithic culture."

It was, contrary to an earlier theory, washed by the warm Gulf Stream. What are now most of Britain as well as most of Ireland, was, it is true, covered by glaciers. At the same time, the sea level was about 200 meters lower than today. Althought it was much weaker than it is today, the Gulf Stream hugged the coast of Doggerland. Because of this, the climate of northern and especially northwestern Europe was completely different than presumed.

Doggerland is also sinking. The immense weight of the ice-sheets depressed the continental plates under them during the last Ice Age. When that pressure was removed, the edges of the continental plates began to adjust, with mantle rock flowing into the rising landmass from adjacent areas. This process is called "isostatic rebound". This process is still continuing.

The strongest earthquake ever recorded in the British Isles occurred in 1931, measuring 6.1 on the Richter Scale. Its epicenter was located on the Dogger Bank, 60 miles off the Yorkshire coast in the North Sea. The effects were felt throughout Great Britain, as well as in Belgium and France. The tremor caused a tsunami which flooded the east coast of Britain and recent excavations of North Sea sand dunes uncovered an underground layer consisting of nothing but shells that was almost certainly created by a previous, larger, tsunami.

Parts of Scandinavia continue to rise isostatically, by up to centimeter a year in some places; it rises as fast as mantle rock can flow in under it, and that mantle rock comes, in part, from under what we now call Doggerland.

Again, feel free to go the line of the Northern European high culture; teachers and revelators of supreme Atlantean wisdom to the rest of the world. You are in company of many, especially in Britain and the US.

I'll go with climate science and general consensus instead. I'm not inclined towards Nordic/Aryan Supremacism.

Neither am I and I resent the implication that I am. I am willing to debate with you despite the preponderance of evidence from recent discoveries on my side but I take strong exception to any smear calling me an Aryan Supremacist.

Well, I'll be frank here.

Never ever have I seen anybody seriously consider this Nordic Atlantean stuff where on the next page there weren't stories about Thule society and Nazi UFO's or the comparable fairy tales that are running around the BNP hardcore.

This "theory" slams in the face of anything of conventional science about the Glacial Age, anything we know about climate and sea levels, anything that can be found as archeological evidence (and no, reindeer harpoons don't make a garden eden). And given the Stonehenge-Centred para-mysticism has such a long history, I refuse to read it without my ideological early-warning antennas switched on.

Sorry

Nowhere in any of my replies to you have I mentioned the Thule society and Nazi UFOs. Nor was I the first to mention Atlantis. You were.

That's a weak excuse, not based on anything presented here. You are apparently judging me from your own preconceived ideas.

Ummmm, "Atlantis" is mentioned right above in the article. And - what amounts to the same - the advanced, superior civilisation that the article speculates to have been located where what is now the North Sea.

And I think I read your mentioning of the "high culture" aspect yourself. It is you and Syn, who jumped from the finding of a reindeer-bone harpoon to a supposed "high culture".

See, I don't know you but I know Syn. And I greatly like what he writes. And I'm willing to give all benefits of the doubt.

But don't tell me that you weren't mentioning superior high cultures when I can scroll up on this thread and can read that repetitively black on white.

There is no doubt that the Doggerlands were inhabitated. The contrary would be foolish; hunter-gatherers spread out to the last barren strip of land that was accessible. But from there to major power-structures that leaves autonomous marks on surrounding areas; seafaring, properly determinable ""civilisations"", or as you mention, "our proposed ancient civilization", now that's a huge step. A HUUUUUGE step. And nothing at all gives nor evidence, nor credence to what you assert.

See, I'm not stupid and I too am a bit acquainted to pre-history and history in general. And well acquainted as well to the different semi-serious fairy tales of - uhum - "long lost civilisations". So, you gotta do better than that. Some remnants of a hut scratched from the floor of the North Sea doesn't make an ancient high-culture.

Now that being said, Syn, for not ruining your thread, I'd suggest you delete the entire set of my comments, starting with post 21. Point to make: You still need to improve your proposition of your "proposed ancient civilization", or else you're going to get ripped apart wherever you publish that.

Look, I feel bad about this.

Let me try to make my point clear. The appearance of open forest in England and Southern Scandinavia dates about from 6000 BC. Before that time, anything beyond Central France and Germany was tundra-steppes, post-glacial marshlands and barren rock mountains. This includes the early Holocene which we crucially refer-to.

The Doggerland perished way before 6000 BC. The last islands should have disappeared around 8.000 BC.

The archaeological finds mentioned above date from app. 11.000BC.

It is certainly correct that for hunter-gatherers, the North-Sea bridge was an attractive region during the summer months. But hunter-gatherers deplete land fast and the Mesolithic tribes living on the Doggerlands must have been mobile and tribe numbers must have been limited for the maximum number of animals one can find within walking distance of any temporary settlement. Also, given it was North of the tree limit, those hunter-gatherer tribes must have moved South every winter as long as there was a land bridge available. You can even venture to speculate that once the Doggerlands were islands, human activity stopped there as migrating animals would have failed to reach the area. Like in the Tundra today, winters would have been very harsh and the open sea unavailable for food during winter.

By any means, any type of society that exceeded the realms of the Native Indians of the Northern Plains of America, would simply not have been possible.

Is there room for a high-culture, let alone a civilisation with technological uniqueness?

No, there isn't.

The idea that specifically in the Doggerlands there might be something that extends beyond what has been seen in similar conditions elsewhere, is entirely based on wishful thinking in my opinion. But more than that. The very idea to claim that something like that may be unique to the Doggerland tribes that hasn't been possible anywhere else - IOW the idea that the Doggerlanders were the "walking Mongols of the Mesolithic" - without any proof nor indication, has a certain smell which makes this theory popular for Stormfronters only.

Nowhere can you find any mentioning of this in legends, tales and artifacts. No archaeological evidence either. It simply has no basis except wishful thinking. And that's where this theory should be classified.

Tundra today, winters would have been very harsh and the open sea unavailable for food during winter.

One word.

Ice.

Two words.

Gulf Stream.

Two words.

Gulf Stream.

Have you seen any plots of the position of the Gulf stream in that era?

Just wondering, though I do see your point.

So far, the best I can find online is referenced in #23.3. I have found other mention, but without supporting data, that the Gulf Stream hugged the north shore of Doggerland and though it was somewhat weaker than the present current, still warmed the waters about 10 C above the present level.

I can also say that those who have direct access to data concerning Doggerland and therefore are presumed more expert in its paleoclimate, geography and supposed cultural level are in agreement with what I have tried to present here. The 'high' culture would have been along the lines of the Gravettian or late Aurignacian, with strong indications of a Solutrean sea-going culture (and its links to the North American Clovis culture) after 20000 BCE. You may argue with these conclusions, of course, but you would be arguing with the experts.

Ok, I'm willing to be more constructive here.

First, it is one of the basic assumptions of climate models that up until the very rapid increase of temperatures that brought the Holocene, the Gulf Stream was very weak. And present conventional assumptions are that in the early Holocene, Doggerland was a set of tidal salt-marches, and, for cultural aspects, gone already.

Either one of the following things are IMO necessary to postulate that there MIGHT have been a potential for a larger settlement and larger, regionally spanning activity based on the Doggerland:

A) either an existing land bridge between Scandinavia and the British Isles which would give the Doggerland a Strategic position on a trans-North-Sea trading route. This would have to be documented by a significant interchange of goods and people between the two.

But this not only for the trade position, but also for the migrating animals that made the food basis for the foragers - and also settlers - of Northern Europe. I wouldn't want you to suggest that some secret lost knowledge permitted agriculture on the Doggerland. That would no be serious.

B) or, at least "else" if not "additionally", the appearance of the oak tree to be documented as existing plant in sufficient number on the Doggerland before it drowned. Only the oak tree gives the potential for a sea-faring culture on the Doggerland, given that birch and pine would give material for nothing more elaborate than kayaks and rafts. The oak tree is the basis for all sea-faring activity North of the Alps; again, postulating a lost shipbuilding technology that hasn't been documented anywhere else, would not be serious.

Please note that the appearance of oak on the British Isles - at least to my knowledge - has only been documented for not earlier than 4000BC - where the Doggerland must have had drowned already.

While earlier models of the last glacial maximum show a weaker thermohaline circulation than at present, current models show a stronger one with no significant changes due to freshwater infusion, and sea surface temperatures show an anomalous warmth in the eastern North Atlantic along the fringe of continental Western Europe. This anomaly may possibly be a result of the stronger thermohaline circulation or the combination of the stronger thermohaline circulation and the exposed land bridge from France and the British Isles that may have extended as far as the Arctic coastline of Eurasia. These models are based to some extent on paleoceanographic data and do not exhibit the weak-strong oscillations obtained in earlier models. This does not exclude the possibility that future modeling using different methodology could yield other results validating earlier models.

In the late 20^th century, archaeologists Bruce Bradley from the University of Exeter and Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institute proposed the connection between the Western European Solutrean culture and the North American Clovis culture known as the Solutrean Theory. At the time of the last glacial maximum, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, the Iberian peninsula of Europe became a steppe-tundra, forcing Solutrean populations to the coasts. According to their proposal, maritime hunters then traveled northward along the North Atlantic ice margin, which provided them with their major food source, and across an ice bridge connecting Europe and North America.

Both archaeological evidence, which shows similarities and traces of transitional technology between Clovis and Solutrean tools not found elsewhere, and genetic evidence, which shows a shared mtDNA haplogroup of very ancient origin in some native American tribes and in Europe, support this theory. Major objections include the lack of evidence for Solutrean sites north of France, lack of evidence for Solutrean seafaring and no similarity of Solutrean artistic expression in Clovis excavations. Along with the lack of evidence for seafaring, objections have been raised over the level of technology necessary for such a crossing and the lack of overlap between the Solutrean and Clovis cultures. Except for the question of artistic expression, the interjection of Doggerland as a waystation between the two cultures answers these objections.

As an addendum to the objections over Solutrean seagoing technology and the necessity for the use of oak or other hardwoods in the construction of transatlantic vessels, the use of small boats constructed of willow frames and animal skins, like the coracle, is both ancient and global. Recent finds, such as the discoveries on Crete, suggest that the capability to cross long stretches of open water was present long before the last glacial maximum.

current models show a stronger one with no significant changes due to freshwater infusion, and sea surface temperatures show an anomalous warmth in the eastern North Atlantic

Apart of the fact that I have not seen such models so far, Doggerland is not the fringe of Western Europe, Ireland is. Until the Gulf Stream current would have reached the Doggerland, before the opening of the English Channel, it would have to pass between Iceland and Scotland, turn Southward front of Norway and pass Doggerland on a path West again. Merely by this, one cold rather postulate that the Doggerlans was a cold spot micro-clima instead of a warmspot micro-clima. That's why climate models work on an assumption that that the path of the Gulf was further North: No North Sea Opening South of England. Just as a comment.

between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, the Iberian peninsula of Europe became a steppe-tundra, forcing Solutrean populations to the coasts. According to their proposal, maritime hunters then traveled northward along the North Atlantic ice margin.

Yes, but that's not the period we refer to. Ice retrated further North after the glacial maximum and reaching the Northern Ice Cap was quite a feat a couple of years later. There's a reason why the theory assumes that the North connection broke down.

the use of small boats constructed of willow frames and animal skins, like the coracle, is both ancient and global.

Find a single specimen of an Atlantic-going vessel anywhere between the Baltics and the Bretagne and we'll talk. Until then, please note that Island hopping in the Aegis or between the (during the ice age much bigger and closer together)islands of Indonesia and travelling the North Sea and Atlantic are in entirely different leagues.

Until the Gulf Stream current would have reached the Doggerland, before the opening of the English Channel, it would have to pass between Iceland and Scotland, turn Southward front of Norway and pass Doggerland on a path West again. Merely by this, one cold rather postulate that the Doggerlans was a cold spot micro-clima instead of a warmspot micro-clima.

One could also postulate that it was warmer, since the opening of the Irish Sea has allowed inflow from the Gulf Stream through the North Channel and since palm trees grow on the most southerly of the Western Isles of Scotland in our current climate, that before the opening of the Irish sea, the inflow of the Gulf Stream along the passage between Norway and the north coast of Doggerland would have benefited that area in a similar fashion relative to the prevailing climate.

Yes, but that's not the period we refer to.

Perhaps that is part of the problem. The period following the last glacial maximum, around 21000 BCE, until the opening of the Irish Sea around 10000 BCE is the period to which I am referring.

Find a single specimen of an Atlantic-going vessel anywhere between the Baltics and the Bretagne and we'll talk.

Currently, off the coast of Norway, the Gulf Stream forms three major counter-clockwise circles. The southernmost, and largest, of these circles, encompasses the area between North America and Norway and contains Sørøya island, where there are carvings of moose-skin boats of the type I described. Stone Age settlement of Sørøya can be traced back before 10000 BCE. The difficulty of finding a preserved specimen of a moose-skin boat and of testing it on the open sea is not available through current marine archaeological discoveries.

I think I have not much to add to it, expect that I think you can't be serious when asserting that something like a coracle would manage to provide a viable form of transit - trade even - on the waves and against the winds of the North Sea. Vikings felt compelled to use a "Knarr" for the same feat. Having sailed the North Sea myself, I find the vision of handing my life over to a Knarr a proof in enormous confidence in the Gods already. Now imagine kneeling for days is a nutshell, seperated only by a skin from water 5ºC cold.

Hope you will able to fill the gaps in your theory. For my liking they are still considerable.

Gotta go now.

Now imagine kneeling for days is a nutshell, seperated only by a skin from water 5ºC cold.

I did say these counter-clockwise currents were part of the Gulf Stream, but nope, I can't imagine it.