April Newsvine Earnings -- I Take a Nose Dive...

Take a look at the earnings per 1,000 pageviews last month in Mykola's March earnings article, Synthesis, and check out another article he wrote in April, covering several previous months:

Mykola's March Earnings Article

The Unofficial Newsvine Earnings Survey

It's pretty obvious that earnings per pageview have continued to go down since last October. I guess the MSNBC buyout isn't doing us any favors.

It would be interesting to determine if the decreased payouts are due solely to advertising dollars shrinking, or whether MSNBC has made the determination that pre-buyout Newsvine payout policies were too liberal, and have been scaling back payouts to cut costs.

May will be better IMHO and June much better than May... I've been seeing many more ads, multiples on most pages.

The Red Cross is having troubles because of how it is managed. They cannot use 92 cents of every dollar to provide services without a lot of smoke and mirrors. Check out the financial report of your local chapter. The director will have a salary that is 20-25 % of the total budget. The job of the director is just to raise funds. They do NOT provide a bit of service to anyone. They live off their volunteers.

The fires in San Diego revealed that they spent 10's of thousands of dollars on hotel and motel rooms that were NEVER USED.

$7.15 Yikes,,,,That is really sad...that is the worst month I have every had..Maybe spending 23.5 hours a day wading thru the mess at the MSNBC feeds looking for COH problems is not a good idea ?

It dumped me way down on the leader board also...Looks like career change time, at least I have enough (almost) for 2 latte's whoa...

I realize they've had their problems, Dr. Know, but they always seem to be there on the front lines whenever there is a disaster, whether it is a family burned out of their home, or a massive disaster like we're seeing now in the Midwest. They do a hell of a lot of good work for the victims, and people would be a lot worse off if they weren't there to help. This article is about the Newsvine earnings for April though, not about the fact that a lot of charities in this country have administrative problems, and grossly overpaid executives.

American Red Cross

Each year, the American Red Cross responds immediately to more than 70,000 disasters, including house or apartment fires (the majority of disaster responses), hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, hazardous materials spills, transportation accidents, explosions, and other natural and man-made disasters.

Although the American Red Cross is not a government agency, its authority to provide disaster relief was formalized when, in 1905, the Red Cross was granted a congressional charter to "carry on a system of national and international relief in time of peace and apply the same in mitigating the sufferings caused by pestilence, famine, fire, floods, and other great national calamities, and to devise and carry on measures for preventing the same." The Charter is not only a grant of power, but also an imposition of duties and obligations to the nation, to disaster victims, and to the people who support its work with their donations.

American Red Cross disaster relief focuses on meeting people's immediate emergency disaster-caused needs. When a disaster threatens or strikes, the Red Cross provides shelter, food, and health and mental health services to address basic human needs. In addition to these services, the core of Red Cross disaster relief is the assistance given to individuals and families affected by disaster to enable them to resume their normal daily activities independently. The organization also provides translation and interpretation to those affected when necessary, and maintains a database of multilingual volunteers to enable this.

The Red Cross also feeds emergency workers of other agencies, handles inquiries from concerned family members outside the disaster area, provides blood and blood products to disaster victims, and helps those affected by disaster to access other available resources. It is a member of the National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster (VOAD) and works closely with other agencies such as the Salvation Army and the Amateur Radio Emergency Service with whom it has Memorandums of Understanding.

The American Red Cross also works hard to encourage preparedness by providing important literature on readiness. Many chapters also offer free classes to the general public.

Dr Know, I couldn't agree with you more. My fiancée's great grandfather fought in World War 2 and always used to say about how poorly the American Red Cross treated them, while the Salvation Army were as true as a charity could be. To this day I still donate the vast majority of my charity givings to the Salvation Army and tend to avoid the Red Cross, because as you say, the vast majority of money given to them simply doesn't make it to where it's needed. It's sad that quite a few charities are falling by the wayside like that.

As a Brit, dollars are pretty useless to me (with the exchange rate and all), I'd much rather cash the money and hand it straight to the Salvation Army than give it to many of the charities partnered with Newsvine.

It would be interesting to determine if the decreased payouts are due solely to advertising dollars shrinking, or whether MSNBC has made the determination that pre-buyout Newsvine payout policies were too liberal, and have been scaling back payouts to cut costs.

Also remember that the quality of the ads has gone done significantly. The flashier ones we see now, I would imagine, aren't worth nearly as much as the better ones that were displayed even 6 months ago.

I've updated the unofficial newsvine earnings survey that Frank linked to above. link.

Please go and weigh in on that comment thread, I'd like a central location for addressing these issues.

It would be interesting to determine if the decreased payouts are due solely to advertising dollars shrinking, or whether MSNBC has made the determination that pre-buyout Newsvine payout policies were too liberal, and have been scaling back payouts to cut costs.

It would be interesting.

or whether MSNBC has made the determination that pre-buyout Newsvine payout policies were too liberal, and have been scaling back payouts to cut costs.

I doubt very seriously, given the kind of relationship that Mike and Calvin and the other guys have generally developed with us, that they would change the payout scheme without giving us a heads up. At the very least, it would require an update to the User Agreement, which still shows a 90% payout.

That's the spirit. :-)

Like I said somewhere else, I'll be looking towards the report in August (from June), since I wasn't really paying attention to what the ads looked like in May.

I've had some pretty good months at Newsvine, but virtually all my articles here have added illustrations, cartoons, or photos. This probably results in less ads somehow per article.

I couldn't care less, since I want readers to enjoy the articles and have to read as few advertisements as possible. They get enough of those everywhere else....

bah, red bull tastes like donkey piss (don't even ask.....), and lager (Canadian or otherwise) isn't much better...and good scotch is gonna cost me at least a few months earnings per glass. Guess I should get a real job at some point :P

But I'd be happy to share a good glass of Highland Park with you some time! (Once you get a real job, I mean...)

When I can manage a trip back up north to your area, I'll let ya know ;)

red bull tastes like donkey piss (don't even ask.....),

I'm sorry but you can't make a comment like that and not expect someone – ok, me – to demand elaboration. Just how do you know what donkey piss tastes like?

I'm sorry but you can't make a comment like that and not expect someone – ok, me – to demand elaboration. Just how do you know what donkey piss tastes like?

College + booze + dare + money = donkey piss

Is that enough elaboration? :P

Wow.

Sorry I asked.

Off to go vomit.

Curiousity may not have killed the cat but it also led him to lick his own balls so, really, what lesson can be learned from that?

Just to clarify, the "he" in that sentence refers to the cat, not Brad, though who knows what other things he did on a dare.
:)

Gross!!!! Honestly, the things some people will do for money. ;O) Reminds me of the time when I was sitting around having a drink (or two) with some Biker friends. We were watching one of the dogs licking his parts, when one of the guys suddenly said.
"God, wish I could do that."

The dog's owner replied.
"If you give him a buscuit, he might let you."

Just to clarify, the "he" in that sentence refers to the cat, not Brad, though who knows what other things he did on a dare.

Pfft...I'm nowhere near that flexible!

Sandie, that made me laugh. Brad, I didn't think so but am just weird enough of a mood (though sober) to make that odd cat comment then realized it might be misconstrued. Would've made that naked vinemeet in chicago- details here that much more interesting.

Speaking of weird bets, I'm not sure if this anecdote is 'appropriate', but it DID happen, and I never forgot it.

I was working a construction site back in early 80's, and the boss climbed up on the second floor of a house we were building. About fifteen employees were standing around. There was no outside wall to the house, just the framing.

Anyway...the boss points to a spot at least 40 feet away, down below, where this 4 x 8 foot plywood board was lying on the ground. He claimed he could urinate from where he was standing and hit the board. I mean...it was a truly RIDICULOUS distance, and didn't seem physically possible.

Oh, everyone starting taking this bet. Some for 20, (me), forty bucks, even a hundred. Okay. This guy grabs a tight hold on a certain part of his anatomy and strains REALLY hard, then releases IT. This huge stream comes out, arcing WAY out and up...and barely hitting the board with a few drops.

The boss laughed at everyone. He had just saved himself several hundred dollars on everyone's next paycheck.

Postscript: On a side note, our boss ended up going to prison for two years sometime later. He sort of neglected to finish a few of the jobs...even after receiving payment. Nobody got their last check from him, after the cops took him away.

This is really sad. My lowest earnings since joining Newsvine. Just over $9. Got to be due to advertising, or lack of it?

So, any positive ideas?

It's always best to plan for the worst and expect the best. As you can see, I'm approaching it backwards.

If we concede the MSM aspect, a mass exodus should be well thought out and planned for. In fact, an open discussion of "how to" would probably effect positive change here. I admit to my pessimism, but I'm 100% sure the vine is gone. MSNBC is going to act like MSNBC no matter how hard the founders of NV try to hold on to the community aspect of what they have created. In my mind to see it otherwise is foolish.

That being said, I'll support any effort to save what's here, but I've seen enough MSM behavior and have watched too much of the politics around these issues to proceed in that direction without complete transparency. Without transparency, energy is stolen from you. That's the world we live in.

We're not going to get that transparency. We will wait an wait, but it will never come. Time will be lost, which is another reason to start planning the new site.

I don't see it as a mass exodus. I see it as evolution. Water levels are rising and migration is inevitable. Not to start assessing all the options is fatal. Unless of course we can live under water with MSNBC.

Again, positive is preparing for all futures, not just deciding what you'll live with. It's about what you may have to live with, and making that transition well.

Well, Newsvine was never transparent. It's taken years of vague comments and reading tea leaves to even put together the gimpy information we have regarding how earnings are allocated and what it takes to move on the leaderboard, and most of that is speculative still. Newvine has always tightly maintained certain aspects of site mechanics, even since the earliest beta days. So I hate to break it to you, but if you were ever looking for transparency, Newsvine was not the place.

Having said that, the Internet has a whole has always been a sink or swim kind of place. The great thing about the MSNBC influx is that, for the most part, they're contained to the MSNBC threads. A few of them have gotten curious and started wandering around, but those we can enculturate the same way we would any other user.

So I hate to break it to you, but if you were ever looking for transparency, Newsvine was not the place.

I wasn't looking for that. I know it's a faith based action.

I'm merely saying to support NV at this point is an exercise in faith, based on what we hope will be. That's all well and good, but one fact can't be denied. The owner of Newsvine is the Main Stream Media.

Again, the owner of Newsvine is the Main Stream Media. Do you see a future in that? Are there solutions that can deny this away?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do I see a future in what? What reason would they have to shut us down?

It's hardly a question of Newsvine being "shut down", Spiffie. At least, I don't think so. No, what it is, is that MSNBC know that Newsvine has a wealth of talented Writers and Citizen Journalists as Members, and, I feel, that they may try to "exploit" the fact.

Allan, like yourself, I am not happy about the MSNBC "takeover" of the Vine. I know it's "business", but, if the Vine had been my site, I would not have "sold out" to them. I would have kept it "Independent" at all costs.

However, I suppose money talks, doesn't it, and one can't really blame Brian and Calvin for taking up the offer.

But the atmosphere on the Vine, has certainly changed, I still think it goes back a few months to "The Prank". This acted like a "911 event", and changed the Vine, and not for the better.

Just my opinion.

Sigh. Not the prank again, which has nothing at all to do with MSNBC in the first place.

No, I have no wish to bring up that subject again, as there has been many a long, and heated discussion about it previously, but it was when you mentioned "atmosphere" that reminded me.

I agree with Sandie that the Prank likely had some effect, but I think there are bigger issues now. The effect of the Prank should have passed a long time ago, although I know MSNBC staff were pretty pissed off about it at the time.

The massive influx of new users, sock puppets, and one-time-shill-commenters is a problem, too. I just don't have all the answers.

It's a funny thing, though. According to Google Analytics, my column is still getting about 18-22k per month hits, and I guess this is okay. But most of them are from articles I published months ago. It's weird. The timelines keep moving up to the present, but it's like living in the Twilight Zone. Hits to articles, sometimes by the thousands, that I published like last July or something.

I dunno...

WTF? You work?

Folks, you've gotta watch the number of ads running. When there are no ads, it doesn't matter how many pageviews you have. Pageviews x number of ads served on your articles x $.000X (percentage paid) x days in the month = $ total for the month. April had lots of blanks where ads usually sit, so of course we're all down to the bone.

Look around today, ad slots filled means you'll be much happier when you see June's figures...

Thanks for the formula, Marily L.

How are ads assigned/distributed to articles and seeds? Are ads placed randomly and equally regardless of page views/votes/comments; or do they gravitate to 'top seeds' with more votes and/or page views?

Why were ads so low in April? Shouldn't the pairing with MSNBC have staved off such droughts?

GPP, no one knows for sure because Newsvine doesn't publish that kind of information. If I had to make a guess (which I like doing!) I would say that every user gets a fair shake at the first bite of the apple. That is, when you initially post a seed or an article, you have an equal chance with everyone else as to whether or not an ad will display on your submission. In months with good ad sales, that means you will probably immediately see an ad.

Whether or not you continue to see ads as your return to the article is probably more dependent (but not necessarily completely tied to) the amount of attention your submissions is attracting. Seeds and articles with higher traffic are probably more likely to retain advertising then seeds and articles which quickly sink down the Vine.

Thanks, Synthesis. I hope I'm helping. It's a difficult moment for all of us. I feel a little like we're in that example that's used to explain the expanding universe: the bowl of expanding porridge with raisins in it. The raisins keep moving away from each other as the porridge expands. I feel it's harder and harder to connect with each other, due to the influx of new faces.

Add to that a bad month or two in the payments, and we're ready to jump ship. I say, get to know at least some of the newcomers and engage them in real discussions, try to stay in touch with our friends, maybe through some Newsvine Challenges or games of some kind, and wait to see if the payments rebound. I am absolutely sure that June is much better than April re quantity of ads. I don't remember about May though. I'm afraid we're going to see another low monthly payment, then the month after it should bounce back. Here's hoping I'm right!

Good advice, Marilyn - If I may toss in my 2 cents...please visit the Greenhouse once in a while. You really can find some users with excellent potential. Some will never grow unless they are helped out by us making comments, clipping their articles, answering their questions, adding them to our friend lists, etc., etc.

I'm frustrated with the atmosphere at Newsvine at the moment, as well. Yes, the massive influx of drive-by users is unsettling. Yes, the but-out by MSNBC has upset many people. Yes, the unmitigated ugliness in threads has gotten worse. Yes, earnings are down this month. All of this is true. All of it is new and uncomfortable. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

So I ask myself what can I do to make it just a little better. Then I try to do it. I appreciate the efforts of the all the people who are trying to be reasonable and trying to find solutions. :)

I often check out the Greenhouse, (found some snails in there earlier, must be the damp weather), but seriously, Lauhal, I, like yourself do try to do my bit to make Newsvine a happy and contented Community.

Trying to steer clear of emotive and controversial subjects as much as I can, but for someone like me, that ain't very easy sometimes.

I'm with you Lauhal. It's always easier to complain than to "get up offa that thing..." so lets "dance til we feel better" as James Brown would have said to us.

I'll take a stroll around the Greenhouse, thanks for the suggestions.

What would we do without you, lauhal?

Gas Pants Press says, in part:

'...in April I was more active, and received more votes, popular contributions and appearances in the weekly top 25 than ever before...'

Backwards thinking. This is an illusion to believe that your earnings are directly related to the Leaderboard, especially when you look at the weekly version. The REAL money comes from how many of your articles are picked up by outside sources. I know this is the truth.

Now...if you have active participants at NV who also happen to be in the top five on the All-Time version of the Leaderboard, then yes...it can convert to earnings. Maybe.

Consider this: Let's say you post up some really controversial piece that gets a hundred votes and three hundred comments. Wow...I'm moving up the Leaderboard this week! And maybe you do.

But unless OUTSIDE users are seeing and linking to this article, you make reletively little. In my biggest month at NV for earnings, I only published six articles, and none of them got more than ten votes. But...two of them were picked up by AOL homepage and Yahoo News. Earnings for that month: My secret. It was over $150, though.

Newsvine Love Link messages are 'what's happening', not the Leaderboard. When I get enough of those in a month, I do just fine.

Really? I just got some link love the other day. I noticed it in my google analytics report before I saw the e-mail.

Rixar, you're not alone in that. We're all feeling the pinch these days.

My pageviews in April were slightly lower (less than 500 PVs) than January but the earnings nearly 3x lower. I've seen people mention something about participation and ads being run, I'll just say that I don't remember seeing any of my articles without ads, and two of the articles I wrote got more than 8K pageviews combined. Something ain't adding up and it makes me want to take back all those nice things I said about how well Newsvine pays its authors. :(

I'm open to the possibility of the reduced earnings having to do with the lack of advertisements so I'll reserve my judgment until the next earnings survey. I'm expecting increased earnings especially since my pageviews continue to go up and May was by far one of my best traffic months.

Wait a minute. One low month is just that...one low month. I wouldn't put much stock in it. Even if it becomes a trend, who is here for the money anyway?

But surely we deserve an explanation at the very least?

This isn't a stockholders' meeting. This is a site that, because they're cool guys, give you 90% of the ad revenue you generate. There's nothing for them to answer for, because we're lucky we even have this opportunity.

It's likely that ad slots were not filled as much as usual in April, which happens.

This isn't a stockholders' meeting.

I can't fully agree with that. The site was built with that model. It's hard to say if it's success would have been the same without it. Once you go down that path, it becomes a little like having stock holders. The only difference is that the "owners" are not beholden to the stock holders.

The point is, Allen, that we are lucky to have NV's model of sharing ad revenue with its contributors at all, and while I think staff should keep us abreast of what's happening (which they do an absolutely great job of), we have no "right" to excellent ad revenue.

This isn't an adversarial thing where owners are trying to screw the employees. This is a website that took an INCREDIBLE amount of thought and sheer hard work to put together and run, and we'd be lucky to have NV even without the ad revenue-sharing. We are in this together with Mike, Calvin, Tom, et al, because they truly want to create and maintain a great community and a great site.

That's why I object so strongly to the belief that we are DUE an explanation for a low month of earnings. No, we are lucky to have this great site, and lucky to have such great people running it, and we should appreciate that they are willing to put in so much work, and then give us 90% of the ad revenue we generate. We aren't owed anything, yet NV's staff is more than willing to explain what is going on.

I hate this "NV owes me something so I am going to demand it from them" attitude, because it is monumentally ungrateful. That's what I am opposed to.

Kyle,

I put enough into this site that I resent being told that I should shut my mouth and be grateful for what I have. I'm not some kid living on dad's dime, I'm a contributing and founding member of this community and this community is making money for them. In that sense, I am a shareholder.

A part of the deal with this site is that we will receiving earnings commensurate with the traffic we generate. When our traffic goes way up and our earnings go way down, that's a violation of the understanding that we have. The least they owe us is an explanation.

Thankfully, Mark got back to me pretty quickly. I'm not 100% satisfied with his response, but at least he responded. See below.

A part of the deal with this site is that we will receiving earnings commensurate with the traffic we generate.

Not exactly, Myk. Commensurate with traffic dependent on ad sales and ad rates.

The point is, Allen, that we are lucky to have NV's model of sharing ad revenue with its contributors at all, and while I think staff should keep us abreast of what's happening (which they do an absolutely great job of), we have no "right" to excellent ad revenue.

Putting the lucky part aside, I said as much. The only difference is that the "owners" are not beholden to the stock holders.

This isn't an adversarial thing where owners are trying to screw the employees. This is a website that took an INCREDIBLE amount of thought and sheer hard work to put together and run, and we'd be lucky to have NV even without the ad revenue-sharing. We are in this together with Mike, Calvin, Tom, et al, because they truly want to create and maintain a great community and a great site.

Again, leaving the luck out of it, the time and effort was greatly due to the people that agreed to the terms and provided the content.

That's why I object so strongly to the belief that we are DUE an explanation for a low month of earnings. No, we are lucky to have this great site, and lucky to have such great people running it, and we should appreciate that they are willing to put in so much work, and then give us 90% of the ad revenue we generate. We aren't owed anything, yet NV's staff is more than willing to explain what is going on.

Again, leaving luck aside, any organization that wants to keep it's employees/volunteers/participants happy is going to give an explanation when such a drastic change in funds occurs. This is basic business. Any business worth it's band width/mortor weight knows such speculation will create a disturbance.

I hate this "NV owes me something so I am going to demand it from them" attitude, because it is monumentally ungrateful. That's what I am opposed to.

I agree, the topic never should have come up. NV should have addressed it before the earnings were posted.

btw Luck has nothing to do with it.

I put enough into this site that I resent being told that I should shut my mouth and be grateful for what I have.

Myk,

I don't think you should "shut your mouth," nor should you stop wondering why earnings dropped. I think what you, and all of us, should do is ask these questions in good faith, rather than demand answers as others are doing.

We should appreciate what NV has done for us, and the incredible way Mike, Calvin and Tom have communicated with and, really, been a part of, the community, and ask those questions of them as friends rather than angry investors. Because, as I am sure you'd agree, that's what NV is about -- being a community rather than just a market for our wares.

I have no problem with asking questions or desiring to receive a decent return on the work that we do -- I have a problem with the accusatory and arrogant tone some are taking when addressing NV staff.

Synth, keep in mind that it's Friday, too, and Newsvine often doesn't hit these threads over the weekend. Myk sent a note, and he included this URL. I imagine if we're going to get anything, we'll probably get it Monday.

But based on the rapport that we've built in this community over the years, I would expect that someone would be coming by to address the confusion and questions. After all, if there's a perfectly logical and innocent explanation (something along the lines of what Marilyn suggested earlier), it would probably be just common sense to share it with us, before the natives get too restless.

Not sure if it was in this thread or in another, but Myk posted an email from Mark saying effectively what we've speculated -- ad-sales are down throughout the entire industry in April, and NV was affected by that.

Hmm, I thought I posted this but it's not showing up - so, again, here's Mark's response.

Hey Myk, I can take this one...

1) The main reason we chose to use Google Analytics is because I didn't want to be in the business of troubleshooting stats tracking. It's a very difficult problem to solve, and I figure they can do as good a job as anyone. Personally, I think you could see an error upwards of 40% using GA. That's just the nature of the tracking sites. Now that we're hooked up with Comscore (which advertising agencies use to gauge how popular a site is), we've seen variations of 3x with what our internal tracking numbers show.

2) April was an awful month. The ad market took a big hit (not just on Newsvine). It's the first month of the second quarter, and that tends to be a bad combination for FMP. Not generally this bad, but it's definitely an anomaly. We still spend the majority of our attention on product, so it's difficult for us to avoid these revenue troughs. Additionally, Newsvine is a fairly complicated transition for the msnbc sales team. They have a methodology for selling ads, and they're still trying to figure out how Newsvine fits in. The hope is we'll start seeing big revenue gains once they start selling our inventory. This is still in the planning phases. I wish I could give you a more definitive estimate. Plus, don't think of it as a bad April, we had an amazing stretch between Dec07-Mar08.

3) Let's keep coming up with creative suggestions and solutions for pulling new users into the community. It needs to grow organically. We have access to large numbers of users, but we need better ways of making the new users stick. Once we hit a critical mass (we're pretty close right now), it becomes much easier for the ad sales team.

So that makes me feel a little better, but the drop was so drastic that I'm not entirely satisfied. Did ad revenue across the internet fall to 20% of its March levels? Or is that just our site?

I guess I'm just so personally bugged by this because I was really looking forward to a non-trivial income boost in late June and now it's not here.

Thanks for posting the response, Myk.

Myk, plausibly. If I'm remembering April, both ad sale rate seemed to be down and the quality of ads (maybe indicating per ad rates) were pretty awful. Remember all the flashing ads for products and services you'd never heard of? I think that was April. So with few ad spaces filled around the sites and ads themselves selling for less money per slot, revenue would have taken a big hit.

Whether ad sales were impacted to similar levels everywhere evenly on the Internet, I doubt that. But I certainly find Mark's explanation plausible.

I do remember that spiffie! Yeah, there were quite a few complaints about the types of ads running in April weren't there?

kymlee, I'm pretty sure that was the month. I saw your comment above about next month. I don't remember what ads were like that month since I was in crunch time getting ready to graduate, but I'll be looking for this month's earnings in August before I draw any firm conclusions.

It was certainly a disappointment for me. I did over 8400 page views, which is quite good for me (hats off to those of you routinely getting 10,000+), so I was expecting a decent month -- but so it goes.

I've been running my own site since April, and I know how difficult it is to get traffic, so I suppose I may be a bit more understanding. NV effectively offers guaranteed traffic, which just isn't possible through other means.

I have been writing what I think is the best content I have written, but I am receiving a tenth of the traffic I would receive on NV, so an off month or not, I hope people understand what NV offers them.

But if the implication is that suddenly my 30k pageviews are a much smaller piece of the pie, then @!$%# that. That means MSNBC.com must just be making 80% of all available ad revenue and we are splitting up the rest? Not @!$%#ing cool.

Have you asked staff whehter that's true? I'd be very curious of their answer but I agree it doesn't seem right or fair.

Have you asked staff whehter that's true? I'd be very curious of their answer but I agree it doesn't seem right or fair.

they are aware of the situation.

Again: Please note: the link is intended for humor. Please come back here as no highjacking is intended. Although I'm beginning to see a trend. : )

But if the implication is that suddenly my 30k pageviews are a much smaller piece of the pie, then @!$%# that. That means MSNBC.com must just be making 80% of all available ad revenue and we are splitting up the rest?

Well. I'm not sure it means that.

Remember, we still don't know how the AP license for the site is maintained. Does Newsvine pay the AP a flat (monthly/quarterly/annual) fee for content or did Newsvine tell AP they would given them a similar ad revenue sharing agreement to what they give users? I tend to believe it's probably the former and that AP articles do not detract from our "earnings pool" (although it's possible).

So it is possible that MSNBC threads are deriving income for MSNBC, but I seriously doubt it. At most corporations I've worked for, there's no way that an employees login would derive ad revenue like that of another user, and then be automatically appropriated by the company. I'm very doubtful that Cynthina Joyce or Jim Ray are raking in the cash from their Newsvine submissions.

Second, most of the super-big MSNBC seeds to Newsvine from this month forward will probably not be submitted by MSNBC staff. Look at those seeds where the traffic is booming, and they're submitted by either Newsvine users or MSNBC readers. MSNBC itself is not deriving the traffic from those stories; rather users like you and me are. The "Discuss this story (on Newsvine)" link will do more to ensure that users receive this revenue than just about anything else, I think.

Yeah, Spif, you're probably right. I think I was just really looking forward to today's earnings and when it flopped got frustrated and paranoid.

Still, I really hope this isn't any sort of sign of things to come.

Everyone has a bad month, even Newsvine. Hang in there. :)

Talk to me in August when we get June earnings. I wasn't really paying attention in May, so I'm not sure what next month's payout will look like, but if the payout in August wasn't closer to normal (or at least significantly above this payout) I would be very surprised.

I would be very surprised.

Excuse me for injecting a note of doubt, but I'll be very surprised if the situation "improves".

MSNBC has no reason to pay out more money once they have paid out less money.

Newsvine is a black box. Something goes in and something comes out. I have my own guess as to what's in the box, you have yours.

It's certainly possible that I'm wrong about what's in the box. What don't you find plausible about my suppositions?

Also, what do you think is in the box?

MSNBC has no reason to pay out more money once they have paid out less money.

Maybe MSNBC doesn't, but the Newsvine guys have generally tried very hard to be on the up-and-up. I have a hard time believing they would just change the entire earnings scheme without notice of some kind.

Perhaps the box contains a "payout" scheme that is adjusted every month. By hand. Just a wild guess.

I have a hard time believing they would just change the entire earnings scheme without notice of some kind.

Well, you are more trusting than I am in that case. Perhaps I've dealt with less transparent people than you have.

the Newsvine guys have generally tried very hard to be on the up-and-up.

You are a good and honest person and you will see these traits in others. Let's just say I am less enthusiastic than you are about the basis of the "up-and-up".

The money is not the important thing. It's trust that is important.

Perhaps the box contains a "payout" scheme that is adjusted every month. By hand. Just a wild guess.

But we have at least a basis for the scheme in the user agreement:

Advertising Revenue. Our services may permit registered users to post User Content to a portion of our Site that is identifiable by a third level domain name selected by the user (username.newsvine.com) called a "Subdomain". As with other areas of our Site, we may post advertisements in the Subdomain ("Ads"). In the event that we post Ads of a third party to a user's Subdomain, we will pay users as follows:

ninety percent (90%) of the Net Advertising Revenue derived from a Subdomain that we receive from third parties (the "User Earnings") will be paid to the registered user of that Subdomain;

ten percent (10%) of the Net Advertising Revenue (the "Referral Earnings") will be paid to the registered user (if any) that the Subdomain's user listed at registration or that we have otherwise identified as the party that referred the Subdomain's user when the account was set up with Newsvine.

In the event that a referring party is not identified, Newsvine will retain the Referral Earnings. For purposes of this User Agreement, "Net Advertising Revenue" means (a) the amount actually collected by Newsvine from a third party for each page view or impression of an Ad, (b) less any allocated overhead costs, commissions, fees paid to third parties, taxes, bad debt, returns, discounts, royalties, credits, and any other costs and expenses arising from the sale and placement of such Ads.

Claiming that Newsvine is violating their own user agreement is quite a bit farther than I think most would go, suspicious or not.

Perhaps I've dealt with less transparent people than you have.

Heh. "Transparent" is not a word I would use, although I can understand the reasoning behind their decision. "Moderately translucent" is probably better. Still, even in cases where we were not given prior notice of changes to the site, generally Newsvine has come along to explain the changes soon afterwards. Given Mark's reply to Myk, I tend to believe that there's been no change to the overall scheme of payouts, just that April was a bad month for ad sales (which match my own observations from that month).

Claiming that Newsvine is violating their own user agreement

I don't claim that they are violating anything. I suspect they have changed the way they calculate payments in order to lower the payments, however. Not the same thing, spiffie.

You list those EULA terms like they were some kind of legal statute. Please reconsider this. Personally, I don't have the faintest idea what the terms are actually based on. "Revenue" indeed.

although I can understand the reasoning behind their decision.

Really now, what decision? Suddenly there is a decision? To do what?

Behind their decision not to be transparent (not regarding revenue). Sorry that wasn't clear in how I structured that post.

The money was a nice addition, though--at this point I'll not sniff at $15-25 extra dollars a month. I had a big drop in April also. I haven't heard anyone other than newbies say they've had an increase.

The AP problem might partly solved. Today when I was about to use the "Discuss this at Newsvine" link at MSNBC, I was redirected via the "red box" to the Newsvine copy of the AP article instead.

There are seven MSNBC stories in the Tops Seeds now, and all of them were originally AP stories that were later picked up by MSNBC and then seeded to Newsvine, so that doesn't apply in these cases at least.

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

Seven

I didn't say it would apply. I said it might be partly fixed. The first couple days I started looking at MSNBC stories for seeding to Newsvine after the new "Discuss" link went live, it didn't do that for me. Also, just like the red box from the Newsvine bookmarklet, it still lets you seed the story even if it's already been seeded, so it may just be the case that these people were not aware of what the red box signified. (Not that it takes a lot of cognitive ability to figure out what the red box means, but you never know with some people….)

I never thought it was fair that we had to compete against AP stories. Now we're also competing against AP stories coming through MSNBC, and these are making it into the Top Seeds section. Mike said a while ago that these stories weren't going to be in the Top Seeds anymore, but they still are. Why do we need a double dose of the same news from MSNBC and the AP?

Why do we need a double dose of the same news from MSNBC and the AP?

Well, we don't know what the contract terms are between the AP and Newsvine and those between the AP and MSNBC. If I had to guess, I would say that right now Newsvine and MSNBC are each operating with their own AP licenses, and while that might change in the future at some point (maybe Newsvine will only carry the MSNBC news feed, maybe it will carry all the MSNBC news partner feeds, etc.) it hasn't yet.

Anyone seen my avatar?

Anyone seen my avatar?

Heh.

I got 80 cents yet I spent more time thanIve ever spent on a blog its disgusting !

I got about 1/3 of what I've been getting with about the same number of views.

I'm sure I'll not wind up being the most popular guy at MSNBC, but I unfortunately get the impression that Newsvine just may be MSNBC's orphan child. I hope I'm wrong.

Meanwhile I was thinking maybe we can prime the pump a bit by linking a Newsvine story to an MSNBC story -- try to showcase a worthy Viner in other words. I just seeded an npat story to a climate change story on MSNBC. Maybe not too many views but I think this is an approach we ought to consider.

Seeding an MSNBC story just makes no sense to me at all.

Most other bloggers in the cyber universe have to spend time driving traffic to their site/article. We have been rather spoiled because we had a good search engine function; we show up on Google in other words. But now I think we have to start learning how to grow our viewership. And of course take advantage of the Gateways for stories on entertainment, science/space and I don't know know what any other Gateways are -- you'd have to fill me in on that.

Some of us have not really had to compete because once someone came into the Newsvine pond, he generally stuck around a bit. Now he/she might only be here a few seconds and back to MSNBC or the search engine or whatever. We have to give value for someone's valuable time and write stuff that requires a bit more thought and possibly research. Give links to sources and so forth.

You, Synthesis, are one of the top link or source givers so I am not referring to you. But there is a certain sector of the vine where people use this as a blog, basically -- writers who just talk off the top of their heads. And if they are looking to become the next Big Thing, the next Kos or even the next Art Buchwald, that's OK. Or if they want to use this site as a free writing workshop, that's OK too. Or some stories are just a jumping off point for some reasonably intelligent discussion -- and that's OK too.
But some column writers fancy themselves citizen journalists when they do no legwork at all, interview no one, offer no hard facts to back up their views. They just state opinion and are certain they are right and don't want anyone to confuse them with facts. We've met people like that.